Monday, October 31

I've been talking up how one day I'm going to make a post on Gay Marriage to generate controversy and get lots of comments, but after the 116 comment bonanza that came about after REDACTED's anti-terror legislation, it's almost redundant. I don't think I could say anything controversial enough to generate 116 comments, and if I tried I'd just end up saying something stupid like George Bush Doesn't Care About Black People.

But what the hell, let's talk about homo marriage

An in-depth report by Tommy (hehe in-depth)

As I've said before on this blog, I'm a different strokes (hehe strokes) for different folks kinda guy. I don't care who you worship (unless you're a Mormon), who you vote for (unless it's Liberal) or who you want to shag (unless they're ugly). I also believe that people should be allowed to live their lives as they see fit, unless their decisions impact negatively on another person. Which is why I fire up when I hear Mosman Councillor's say brown people aren't welcome, or hear Muslim Clerics defend gang rapes, or see films or games or TV shows get unecessarily censored because they offend some people.

So in 2004, when the Howard Government introduced and passed completely unecessary legislation (they were outlawing something that wasn't legal in the first place) to ban gay marriage in Australia, and were supported by a Labor Opposition who didn't want to get on the wrong side of religious conservatives in an election year, I fired up. And though the legislation doesn't affect me (Freddy Fittler said 'no' when I proposed), I'm still fired up.

Why Freddy :(

Every citizen of this country, no matter who they prefer boning, should be allowed to get married. Every couple should possess the right to have or adopt children. Every couple in the country should be afforded the same rights in regards to superannuation, inheritance, visitation and medical decisions. State-by-state laws are insufficient in giving homosexual couples the same right as heterosexual couples. Discrimination based on sexuality is no different to discrimination based on race or religion, it is immoral and unjust in a modern democracy.

There is a religious argument against gay marriage, and I fully support the rights of churches and parishioners not to condone such unions. However, in the year 2005, marriage is not the sole possession of the Church. Marriage is a Government-recognised, legal agreement -it can be performed outside of Churches by civil celebrants. Churches should be free to express their beliefs in regards to same-sex marriage, but their opposition should not be a consideration in legislation. It's that pesky little 'seperation of Church and State' thingy that always pops up in democracies.

The argument that marriage is the bedrock of 'family values' and any moves to allow homos to tie the knot would 'undermine our social fabric' or would 'pose a threat to society' conveniently ignores the fact that 40% of marriages in this country end in divorce. Call me crazy, but I think if marriage was such an important part of the social fabric of our country, the skyrocketing divorce rate would have done us in ages ago. I fail to see how letting two people who love each other join the ranks is going to have a negative effect on society. How come the thousands of de-facto homosexual couples don't pose a similar threat to society? Do they only generate social upheaval when they share the same last name?

Sesame Street turned deadly when Bert and Ernie finally tied the knot

The above argument also just happens to be the same one used to prevent interracial marriages a century or two ago. A variation on that argument was also used to justify the White Australia policy. In fact, pretty much every advance in civil rights has been opposed by claiming a 'threat' to moral fibre or social values or the moral fabric or bedrock or tradition. Some things are just not worth defending.

I'll probably cop a bit of shit for saying same-sex couples should be allowed to adopt children. It is the worst example of discrimination in the whole bunch. The typical argument is that the most desirable outcome for a child is to have strong female and male role models. It was the same argument used to villify single mothers a few decades ago. And I agree, in a perfect world, every child would have a Mummy and a Daddy wholovedthemverrrryyymuch. And Daddy wouldn't drink. And Mummy wouldn't fuck Daddy's best friend. And they wouldn't get a divorce when the child was 12. And Mummy's new boyfriend wouldn't hit the child when he had a lousy day at work. But in case you haven't noticed yet, the world isn't perfect.

And studies conducted over the last two decades show little difference in the emotional or mental health of children raised by homosexual couples compared to their heterosexual counterparts. A child raised by pillow-biters doesn't necessarily become a pillow-biter. And while some of these studies are criticised for using flawed methodology, there are few studies which show a decidedly negative outcome for children raised by homosexuals.

Call me crazy, but I don't think the sexuality of a child's parents has anything to do with how well they raise their kid. And there are plenty of other scenarios worse than a kid having two mums or two dads, yet I don't see them being outlawed. If a homosexual couple do not have the same rights as a heterosexual couple in regards to adopting and raising children, then neither should single parents.

So yes, that's about it.

Here is a picture of some lesbians.


rob zombie said...

Marriage practiced in Australia is more religious than customary, therefore there is a difference between what is ethical.

Perhaps we should educate kids in schools not to player-hate by making them pretend to be part of a gay couple... oh wait we did.

The next best thing we can do is tease gays until they get sad and eat lots, therefore making them fat and we all know that fat people don't get married, unless they belong to the labor party... because labor is fat.

jessica alba said...

lesbians are ok

Sam said...

I agree that homosexuals are being discriminated against with the current system. I am still undecided on the adoption issue. On one side I think adopted children have enough trouble developing healthy relationships with others and peace within themselves. On the other hand the homosexuals I currently know would make fantastic parents. Other than that I think long term homosexual couples should be entitled to the same rights as heterosexual couples. On the religous issue maybe a distinction should be made between religously supported marraiges and civil marraiges, if only by name.

Polygon said...

You disgusting immoral filthy ratbag. You are yet another socialist twat who believes in perpetuating the homosexual perversion of society and the corruption of our future - children.

Children are produced through intercourse because they're SUPPOSED to have a mother and father. When the male or female is infertile, we allow adoption and IVF. Trying to give benefit rights to the wacky lunatic fringe who make a LIFESTYLE CHOICE to parade around in pink g-strings and talk with an unnerving voice on top of ugly floats in the Sydney CBD every twelve months is a joke.

dodecahedron said...

Are you joking polygon?

Tommy said...

Bout time someone fired up.

First off - 'socialist'? Did I make a post supporting gay marriage or supporting collective ownership of industry or economy? What next, I'm a communist because I make a post about wrestling?

In a perfect world, a kid has a mum and a dad. It's the natural way. But like I said, the world isn't perfect. But you seem to be living in your own fantasy world where homos only exist on floats once a month, so maybe its a bit different where you live

As for the last bit, well let's just say I hope your child turns out to be a massive fag

And I mean a massive one

Like Carson but gayer

speirs said...

Just because the world isn't perfect doesn't mean we have to sell ourselves or a child's future short.

Yes a child would be able to grow up happy, cared for and loved by gay parents, but we have to face facts that when a selection process is involved a heterosexual couple is always going to 'win'.


Would you like to buy a child? I let you have cheap.

Quadrangle said...

To dear Polygon,

Offspring produced through intercourse allows greater genetic variation. Untill relatively recent advances in medicine mothers commonly died during or shorlty after labour, is that because those children were SUPPOSED to only have a father?

Your description of homosexuals is rediculous. Have you ever met a homosexual that acts as you described? and you seem to have forgotten that there are also female homosexuals.

Tommy said...

obviously a heterosexual couple raising a kid is the desirable outcome and is preferred to a homosexual couple, i never said it was better or even the same. i'm just saying that the existing legislation is discriminatory against homosexual couples because it doesn't afford them the same rights. if a child does not have a biological mother and/or father, i think a homosexual couple can raise them just as well, and their legal rights should reflect that.

tommy's phantom limb said...

So here are a couple of articles that find gays ok as parents:

Allen, M., & Burrell, N. (1996). Comparing the impact of homosexual and heterosexual parents on children: Meta-analysis of existing research. Journal of Homosexuality, 32(2), 19-35.

Amato, P. R., & Keith, B. (1991). Parental divorce and the well-being of children: A meta-analysis. Psychological Bulletin, 110, 26-46.

Armesto, J. C., & Weisman, A. G. (2001). Attributions and emotional reactions to the identity disclosure ("coming out") of a homosexual child. Family Process, 40(2), 145-161.

Bailey, J. M., Bobrow, D., Wolfe, M., & Mikach, S. (1995). Sexual orientation of adult sons of gay fathers. Developmental Psychology, 31, 124-129.

Barret, R. L., & Robinson, B. E. (2000). Gay fathers. San Francisco: Jossey-Bass.

Belcastro, P. A., Gramlich, T., Nicholson, T., Price, J., & Wilson, R. (1993). A review of data based studies addressing the affects of homosexual parenting on children's sexual and social functioning. Journal of Divorce and Remarriage, 20(1-2), 105-122.

Belsky, J. (1984). The determinants of parenting: A process model. Child Development, 55(1), 83-96.

Bigner, J. J., & Bozett, F. W. (1989). Parenting by gay fathers. Marriage and Family Review, 14(3-4), 155-175.

Bigner, J. J., & Jacobsen, R. B. (1992). Adult responses to child behavior and attitudes toward fathering: Gay and nongay fathers. Journal of Homosexuality, 23(3), 99-112.

Bliss, G. K., & Harris, M. B. (1999). Teachers' views of students with gay or lesbian parents. Journal of Gay, Lesbian, and Bisexual Identity, 4(2), 149-171.

Blumenfeld, W. J. (Ed.). (1992). Homophobia: How we all pay the price. Boston: Beacon Press.

Bozett, F. W. (1980). Gay fathers: How and why they disclose their homosexuality to their children. Family Relations, 29, 173-179.

Bozett, F. W. (1981a). Gay fathers: Evolution of the gay-father identity. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 51, 552-559.

Bozett, F. W. (1981b). Gay fathers: Identity conflict resolution through integrative sanctioning. Alternative Lifestyles, 4, 90-107.

Bozett, F. W. (1982). Heterogenous couples in heterosexual marriages: Gay men and straight women. Journal of Marital and Family Therapy, 8(1), 81-89.

Bozett, F. W. (1989). Gay fathers: A review of the literature. Journal of Homosexuality, 18(1-2), 137-162.

Bronfenbrenner, U. (1986). Ecology of the family as a context for human development: Research perspectives. Developmental Psychology, 22, 723-742.

Bronfenbrenner, U., & Ceci, S. J. (1994). Nature-nurture reconceptualized in developmental perspective: A bioecological model. Psychological Review, 101, 568-586.

Cass, V. C. (1979). Homosexual identity formation: A theoretical model. Journal of Homosexuality, 4(3), 219-235.

Causey, K. A., & Duran-Aydintug, C. (1997). Tendency to stigmatize lesbian mothers in custody cases. Journal of Divorce and Remarriage, 28(1-2), 171-202.

Chan, R. W., Brooks, R. C., Raboy, B., & Patterson, C. J. (1998). Division of labor among lesbian and heterosexual parents: Associations with children's adjustment. Journal of Family Psychology, 12, 402-419.

Clay, J. W. (1990). Working with lesbian and gay parents and their children. Young Children, 45(3), 31-35.

Coleman, E. (1981-1982). Developmental stages of the coming out process. Journal of Homosexuality, 7(2-3), 31-43.

Connolly, C. (1996). An analysis of judicial opinions in same-sex visitation and adoption cases. Behavioral Sciences and the Law, 14(2), 187-203.

Connolly, C. (1998). The description of gay and lesbian families in second-parent adoption cases. Behavioral Sciences and the Law, 16(2), 225-236.

Cornett, C. W., & Hudson, R. A. (1985). Psychoanalytic theory and affirmation of the gay lifestyle: Are they necessarily antithetical? Journal of Homosexuality, 12(1), 97-108.

Cramer, D. (1986). Gay parents and their children: A review of research and practical implications. Journal of Counseling and Development, 64, 504-507.

Crase, S., Clark, S., & Pease, D. (1978). Iowa Parent Behavior Inventory manual. Ames: Iowa State University Research Foundation.

Crawford, I., McLeod, A., Zamboni, B. D., & Jordan, M. B. (1999). Psychologists' attitudes toward gay and lesbian parenting. Professional Psychology: Research and Practice, 30, 394-401.

Crawford, I., & Solliday, E. (1996). The attitudes of undergraduate college students toward gay parenting. Journal of Homosexuality, 30(4), 63-77.

Dank, B. M. (1971). Coming out in the gay world. Psychiatry: Journal for the Study of Interpersonal Processes, 34(2), 180-197.

Demo, D. H., & Allen, K. R. (1996). Diversity within lesbian and gay families: Challenges and implications for family theory and research. Journal of Social and Personal Relationships, 13, 415-434.

Eichberg, R. (1991). Coming out: An act of love. New York: Plume Books.

Eliason, M. J. (1996). Identity formation for lesbian, bisexual, and gay persons: Beyond a "minoritizing" view. Journal of Homosexuality, 30(3), 31-58.

Erikson, E. H. (1950). Childhood and society. New York: Norton.

Fischer, K. W., & Watson, M. W. (1981). Explaining the Oedipus complex. In K. W. Fischer (Ed.), Cognitive development: New directions in child development (No. 12, pp. 79-92). San Francisco: Jossey-Bass.

Flaks, D. K., Ficher, I., Masterpasqua, F., & Joseph, G. (1995). Lesbians choosing motherhood: A comparative study of lesbian and heterosexual parents and their children. Developmental Psychology, 31, 105-114.

Gartrell, N., Banks, A., Hamilton, J., Reed, N., Bishop, H., & Rodas, C. (1999). The National Lesbian Family Study: II. Interviews with mothers of toddlers. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 69, 362-369.

Gartrell, N., Hamilton, J., Banks, A., Mosbacher, D., Reed, N., Sparks, C. H., & Bishop, H. (1996). The National Lesbian Family Study: I. Interviews with prospective mothers. American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 66, 272-281.

Gibbs, E. D. (1988). Psychosocial development of children raised by lesbian mothers: A review of research. Women and Therapy, 8(1-2), 65-75.

Gillis, J. R. (1998). Cultural heterosexism and the family. In C. J. Patterson & A. R. D'Augelli (Eds.), Lesbian, gay, and bisexual identities in families: Psychological perspectives (pp. 249-269). New York: Oxford University Press.

Golombok, S., Spencer, A., & Rutter, M. (1983). Children in lesbian and single-parent households: Psychosexual and psychiatric appraisal. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry and Allied Disciplines, 24, 551-572.

Golombok, S., & Tasker, F. (1994). Children in lesbian and gay families: Theories and evidence. Annual Review of Sex Research, 5, 73-100.

Guttmann, J. (1993). Divorce in psychosocial perspective: Theory and research. Hillsdale, NJ: Erlbaum.

Hanson, S. M., & Bozett, F. W. (1985-1986). Fatherhood: A library. Marriage and Family Review, 9(3-4), 229-253.

Harris, M. B., & Turner, P. H. (1985-1986). Gay and lesbian parents. Journal of Homosexuality, 12(2), 101-113.

Herek, G. M. (1986). The social psychology of homophobia: Toward a practical theory. Review of Law and Social Change, 14, 923-934.

Hetrick, E. S., & Martin, A. D. (1987). Developmental issues and their resolutions for gay and lesbian adolescents. Journal of Homosexuality, 14(1-2), 25-43.

Huggins, S. L. (1989). A comparative study of self-esteem of adolescent children of divorced lesbian mothers and divorced heterosexual mothers. Journal of Homosexuality, 18(1-2), 123-135.

King, B. R., & Black, K. N. (1999). Extent of relational stigmatization of lesbians and their children by heterosexual college students. Journal of Homosexuality, 37(2), 65-81.

Lee, J. A. (1977). Going public: A study in the sociology of homosexual liberation. Journal of Homosexuality, 3(1), 49-78.

Long, N., & Forehand, R. (1987). The effects of parental divorce and parental conflict on children: An overview. Journal of Developmental and Behavioral Pediatrics, 8(5), 292-296.

Mallon, G. P. (1994). Counseling strategies with gay and lesbian youth. Journal of Gay and Lesbian Social Services, 1(3-4), 75-91.

Martin, C. A., & Colbert, K. K. (1997). Parenting: A lifespan perspective. New York: McGraw-Hill.

McIntyre, D. H. (1994). Gay parents and child custody: A struggle under the legal system. Mediation Quarterly, 12(2), 135-149.

McLeod, A. C., Crawford, I., & Zechmeister, J. (1999). Heterosexual undergraduates' attitudes toward gay fathers and their children. Journal of Psychology and Human Sexuality, 11(1), 43-62.

Miller, B. (1978). Adult sexual resocialization: Adjustments towards a stigmatized identity. Alternative Lifestyles, 1, 207-234.

Miller, B. (1979a). Gay fathers and their children. Family Coordinator, 28, 544-552.

Miller, B. (1979b). Unpromised paternity: The lifestyles of gay fathers. In M. Levine (Ed.), Gay men: The sociology of male homosexuality (pp. 239-252). New York: Harper & Row.

Miller, J. A., Jacobsen, R. B., & Bigner, J. J. (1981). The child's home environment for lesbian vs. heterosexual mothers: A neglected area of research. Journal of Homosexuality, 7(1), 49-56.

Minton, H. L., & McDonald, G. J. (1983-1984). Homosexual identity formation as a developmental process. Journal of Homosexuality, 9(2-3), 91-104.

Morales, E. S. (1989). Ethnic minority families and minority gays and lesbians. Marriage and Family Review, 14(3-4), 217-239.

Moses, A. E. (1978). Identities management in lesbian women. New York: Praeger.

O'Connell, A. (1993). Voices from the heart: The developmental impact of a mother's lesbianism on her adolescent children. Smith College Studies in Social Work, 63(3), 281-299.

Patterson, C. J. (1995). Sexual orientation and human development: An overview. Developmental Psychology, 31, 3-11.

Plummer, K. (1975). Sexual stigma: An interactionist account. London: Routledge and Kegan Paul.

Radkowsky, M., & Siegel, L. J. (1997). The gay adolescent: Stressors, adaptations, and psychosocial interventions. Clinical Psychology Review, 17(2), 191-216.

Ross, J. L. (1988). Challenging boundaries: An adolescent in a homosexual family. Journal of Family Psychology, 2, 227-240.

Russell, G. (1999). Primary caregiving fathers. In M. E. Lamb (Ed.), Parenting and child development in "nontraditional" families (pp. 57-81). Mahwah, NJ: Erlbaum.

Rust, P. C. (1993). "Coming out" in the age of social constructionism: Sexual identity formation among lesbian and bisexual women. Gender and Society, 7(1), 50-77.

Scallen, R. M. (1982). An investigation of paternal attitudes and behaviors in homosexual and heterosexual fathers (Doctoral dissertation, California School of Professional Psychology, 1982). Dissertation Abstracts International, 42(9-B), 3809.

Shernoff, M. (1996). Gay men choosing to be fathers. Journal of Gay and Lesbian Social Services, 4(2), 41-54.

Skeen, P., & Robinson, B. E. (1984). Family backgrounds of gay fathers: A descriptive study. Psychological Reports, 54, 999-1005.

Skeen, P., & Robinson, B. E. (1985). Gay fathers' and gay nonfathers' relationship with their parents. Journal of Sex Research, 21(1), 86-91.

Stacey, J., & Biblarz, T. J. (2001). (How) does the sexual orientation of parents matter? American Sociological Review, 66(2), 159-183.

Strommen, E. F. (1989). "You're a what?": Family members reactions to the disclosure of homosexuality. Journal of Homosexuality, 18(1-2), 37-58.

Troiden, R. R. (1989). The formation of homosexual identities. Journal of Homosexuality, 17(1-2), 43-73.

Troiden, R. R., & Goode, E. (1980). Variables related to the acquisition of a gay identity. Journal of Homosexuality, 5(4), 383-392.

Wallerstein, J. S., & Kelly, J. B. (1980). Surviving the breakup: How children and parents cope with divorce. New York: Basic Books.

Weinberg, T. S. (1978). On "doing" and "being" gay: Sexual behavior and homosexual male self-identity. Journal of Homosexuality, 4(2), 143-156.

Whitley, B. E. (1990). The relationship of heterosexuals' attributions for the causes of homosexuality to attitudes toward lesbians and gay men. Personality and Social Psychology Bulletin, 16(2), 369-377.

I must be old school but generally I try and go with what has been proven time and time again.
But I will admit that there are problems, but no more than "normal" parenting issues and these are generally in relation to the way others react to the childs situation.
Sorry tommy maybe I should have posted them one at a time to get your numbers up...

tommy's phantom limb said...

Thank you Ovid,

Speirs may be the only one who gets that.

Tommy said...

somebody did an essay on homos for uni

speirs said...

preach it sistah!

What! 'Journal of Homosexuality'? I wonder if that is peer reviewed *nudge nudge*... and by reviewed I mean hot lesbian action.

Anonymous said...

There's not as much action on here as I thought there would be. I thought at least Whyms would be posting, given this topic effects him so directly.

poose said...

tommy, your controversy sucks. i mean, a post about that car crash got this many comments.

poose said...

hey tommy, do a post about the melbourne cup: the race that stops a nation

or on nazis:the nation that stopped a race

that'll get you some controversy

Tommy said...

somebody heard a joke today and wanted to repeat it

richie said...

George Bush Doesn't Care About Black People!

Freddy said...

Marry me Tommy

Tommy said...

freddy :O

run away with me

we will go to melbourne, nobody will recognise you there

Mr PC said...

Gay marriages are fine as long as they don't have abortions, we have to draw the line somewhere!

tommy said...

this whole argument is stupid because all homosexuals are pedophiles. like richie

richie said...

carl isn't that much younger than me

Tommy said...

toose if you impersonate me once more i'm editing your guest blogs

jerry bruckheimer said...

you're a fag

Skeletor said...

Defacto relationships afford pretty much all the same rights to individuals as a marriage relationship does - so why the push for marriage in a legal sense?

Strictly in the legal sense - marriage is defined by law as between a "man and a woman" anyway.
So the move for reform is practically a contradiction.

If it is for stature, recognition, well then I think society opposes not completely on sub-religious grounds, but that that sort of legal recognition is acceptance of normality.

I would consider it generally accepted that homosexuality is not a normal state of being. If homosexuals require legal affirmation for who they are and what they feel while still afforded similar rights in a defacto relationship anyway - it is pointless to create more legislation and paperwork for a particular demographics insecurity and self-esteem.

BTW, Tommy... how many other pics did you cum across to find that last one?

Tommy said...

because in a modern democracy we shouldn't be settling for people having 'pretty much all the same rights'. there are rights de facto couples are not afforded, and homosexual couples should have just as much access to these rights as anybody else.

marriage was only strictly defined as a union between a man and a woman after the 2004 Commonwealth Marriage act.

legal recognition of the normality of homosexuality was established decades ago with anti-discrimination and anti-villification law.

it has never been proven that homosexuality is NOT a normal state of being. the argument of nature vs nurture is being debated to this day. to deprive a large segment of the community rights because some people don't think they're 'normal' is unjust.

in regards to your BTW, i have that pic on immediate standby in a glass box labelled emergency

He-Man said...

By the power of Castle Greyskull:

De Facto rights are not "pretty much all the same" to a legally recognised married couple.

In a dissolusion of relationship they are limited to state based court systems, not the Federal or Family court that considers individual circumstances and financial obligations and earning potential. Therefore the division of assets is greatly in favour of the breadwinner. So if you were the one at home taking care of the children, which this topic was originally concern with, then you are financially screwed.

Superannuation is also not considered in division of assets. Enjoy never being able to retire properly.

Let's not get started on property laws either.

One must actually do some research before making claims. Come back when you pay google a visit.

Anonymous said...

I support gay mMariages, as long as both girls are hot.

Anonymous said...

and if they let me watch

skeletor said...

Googling family law does not give you carte blanche to say what is fair and what isn't.

In... well let's call it a "pure" homosexual relationship, where someone has been gay right from when they were conceived as has not been genetically proven yet - it is unlikely there will be children involved, and both parties are most likely working anyway (as with many heterosexual couples... have you seen the price of housing in Sydney?! Holy crepes!).

Obviously this isn't the rule - but it isn't the exception either.

I'm not saying we should be (or already are) denying homosexuals the same rights as anyone else.
Everyone has rights - you've got your basic food and shelter, no torture human rights, etc.

Legislating on homosexual marriage though, is something different. Everyone knows people should have equal rights... I'm not demanding your seat on the friggin' bus here - but when you legislate something you commit society to it.

Society normalising homosexuality may encourage homosexual relationships or highlight it as normal and acceptable. I dispute that. -If you read a biography by a homosexual (particularly one who may call themselves 'recovered') you will notice many homosexuals consider their preference a result of nurture not nature.

Now this is just as unproven as the 'gay gene' etc. Lets not waste time on a God vs Evolution session here. But many people who highlight homosexuality as a personal experience of theirs, claim it is in fact NOT a normal part of their development.

Some identify it as stemming from a broken relationship with their father for example. Can we happily and hurriedly reconcile something that may be the result of a broken relationship as being entirely equal to (usually) the closest of relationships with both social and legal expectations, obligations, and consequences?

Oh sure - screw it - they're in love, and who are we to stop them???
Family Law deals with the dissolution of relationships primarily.

Arguing for equal status rights for lovers IN a relationship pertaining to their breaking up!?

How incongruous.

Maybe if the government just burnt my tax dollars I'd at least be able to toast marsh-mallows.

Tommy said...

it doesn't really matter if you think we should be (or are) denying homos the same rights as everybody else, because it's a fact. they do not have equal rights. that's what this whole blog was about. it's established in legislation.

yes, it's insignificant compared to other rights, but that is no reason to legislate against them. if heterosexual couples have rights in regards to the dissolution of their relationships, then homosexual couples should have those same rights. just like they should have the same right to enter into a union (i don't think it matters if it is called marriage or not) that grants them equal rights in regards to other matters like medical clearances.

quoting biographies from 'reformed' homos and citing psychological reasons for homosexuality is all well and good, but like we've both said - there's no definitive proof either way. i'd argue that a chubby 15 year old kid living in a conservative christian town in bumfuck, idaho isn't going to come out of the closet and get called a faggot and get beaten on every second day by the defensive line of the high school football team by CHOICE or because of how he was brought up.

two male chinstrap penguins at the central park zoo in new york ignore their potential female shags and have sex with each other. there are pairs of male flamingos that raise FOSTER chicks. the majority of african bonobo apes are bisexual (hehe bonerbo). homosexuality has been discovered in dolphins, sheep, beetles and fruit bats. obviously that's why they're called fruit bats. i just have a hunch that these animals were not nurtured to be homos by a group of Faggy Tarzans.

but again, no definitive proof either way :D

i see your point that legalising gay marriage would say that it is accepted by society, but i don't see how that doomsday scenario justifies withholding rights.

Anonymous said...

im surprised no one has said it yet but.........



tommy your gay

He-Man said...

Skeletor: "Googling family law does not give you carte blanche to say what is fair and what isn't."

My point was to actually research what you say before making unsubstantiated claims, and google because seeing as your entire arguement is based on your own perspective and opinion then why should you use credible facts the next time?

I could also use big words like 'carte blanche' and hope no one realises that in this context it is compeltely wrong, like the claims in your previous post that you fail to defend.

You keep saying "Everyone knows people should have equal rights" yet you still deny one group that right. You continually present arguments from sources you have made up yourself and counter them yourself? As much as I enjoy seeing a person argue with themselves it really isn't impressive or valid...

Thanks for playing.

speirs said...

Tommy: "So yeah, hope you like my site (I was going to write 'my little corner of the internet', but that sounds incredibly lame). Don't expect much though, it will mainly just be me bitching about John Howard, Channel Nine, the NRL, Vince McMahon and the ALP. Sometimes all at once, in a massive cacophony of bitching"

Tsk tsk, where did you lose your way? :)

skeletor said...

Research what?

The homosexuality issue is an intensely personal one.

It is recognised as a state or condition, but without confirmed cause or origin.

It's normality is under debate, seemingly because some people don't think it is normal, and others want it to be normal.

Myself - I do not believe homosexuals are such a separate part of the population, that they are victimised; and must be affirmed positively to compenate for a perceived lack of rights.

The law doesn't prevent them getting married - merely means it should be done under the same circumstances as every other person in the country: to a member of the opposite sex, of the appropriate age.

If you disagree with this - great. I imagine that will be your own opinion, formed from your own life experience, same as Tommy's.

That we disagree is why the issue hasn't reached a comfortable resolve in society already.
There is no defining answer for the points of contention (ie. origin).
And in this democracy, there needs to be some sort of majority agreement or want, in order to initiate change.

Anonymous said...

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